49
Record, CD, Analog, Digital
CHRISTIAN
MARCLAY
&
YASUNAO
TONE
In
th
e lale
19
70
s,
concurrent with the bi
rth
of HipHop,
Ch
ristian Marclay
(1955-
) pioneered the use of turntables and found recordings to make
experimental music In the context of art. John Cage, Paul Hindemith, and
Ern
st
Tach had b
eg
un
sucl1
experiments forty years ea
rl
ier. Yet it was Mar-
cl
ay who most
fu
lly explored
th
is
musical terrirory. Inspired by punk rock and
by avant-garde art movements such as
Da
da
and Fluxus, Marclay used
skipping thrift-store records to produce percussive effeclS. He cut up and
reassembled them Into new composites a
nd
employed
mu
ft
iple turntables
to
produce inventive and often humorous
CO
llages. Using found records, al
bUm
covers, audio tapes, and snapshots, Marclay has also produced a body
01
photographs, sculptures, videos,
an
d Installations that have been widely
exhibited in galleries and museum
s.
Ya
sunao Tone (1935- )
h~s
been producing happenings, experimental
music, and digital art for more
Ih
an
four decades.
In
1960,
wit
h
Tak
ehl
sa
Kosugl,
To
ne form
ed
Group Ongaku, the first cdliective improvisalion
en
semble
in
Ja
pa
n; and, in 1962,
he
became
an
ac
tiv
e member of the Japa-
nese wing
of
Fluxu
s.
Al
ways Interested
In
the manipulation of technology to
aesthetic ends, Tone began experimenting with CDs and
CD
players
in
the
early 1980s,
In
1985, he producec histirs
t·
wounded CD" by-attaching pin-
hole-punctured transparent tape to commercial CDs in order to override the
CD player's error-correction system and produce sporadic bursts of
wh
ite
noi
se.
In
this discussion with the editors of Music magazine, Marclay and
Ton
..
discuss their wo
rk
and compare strategies
fo
r manipulating analog and digi-
lal (ecordings,
CHRISTIAN MARCLAY:
You
make
CDs
skip?
YASUNAO
TONE:
It's not ieally skipping. It's
di
storting information. A
CD
consists
of a series
of
samples.
You
know bytes and bits, right? One byte contains
sixteen bits of information. So,
if
I block
one
or two bits, information still
christian marclay
& yasunao tone • 341
I
'
exists-one
byte
of
information-but
the numbers are altered so
it
becomes
totally different information. That's the idea. It's not skipping sound.
MARC
LAY:
So, how do you do it?
TONE: I use Scotch tape. I make many pinholes
on
bits of Scotch tape which I
attach to the CDs.
MARCLAY: I tried doing different things with
COs-scratching
the surtace or put-
ting a little spray paint on it, different
patterns-but
just the slightest thing
makes.
TONE:
...
a big difference.
MARCLAY: Yeah, the machine stops.
TONE: Because error·correcting software
is
built
in.
MARCLAY:
Is
there a way
to
take that sohware out?
TONE: I don't know how to do that, but if you could
it
would
be
great (
....
J
MARCLAY: t like the Scotch tape.
TONE: The Scotch tape enables me
to
make burst errors without significantly
affecting the system and stopping the machine. The error·correcting software
constantly interpolates between individual bits of misread information,
but
if
adjacent
bits
are misread, a burst occurs and the software mutes the output.
If
a significant number
of
bursts occur
in
one frame, the error increases
until
it
eventually overrides the system.
MARCLAY: That's why I like the old-Iashioned turntable: because it's
so
dumb.
You
can hit
it
, you can do all these things, and
it
will never stop playing. The
CO players are
100
smart
...
smart machines.
TONE: But
to
fight with smart machines you have to
be
very primilive. The
machine's behavior
is
very peculiar,
it
cannot decide what
to
do. Sometimes
it
proceeds backwards,
Or
it
hesitates and searches for Ihe next signal. When
the CD player stops or hesitates
10
advance, I tap il or slightly shake
it.
This
very tiny movement affects the machine's
behavior-maybe
changing the
focal distance of the laser
beam-and
it
recovers from malfunctioning.
MARCLAY:
It
sounds like a rattlesnake when it's skipping.
It
has that quality.
It
is
the distinctive
CD
malfunctioning
sound-the
sound of a rattlesnake. I was
just listening
10
this
CD
by
OJ
Shadow. On the first cut you hear this skipping
CD. I think it's the lirst time I heard that rattlesnake sound
in
a pop context.
Otherwise, I only heard it with you, and Nic Collins, and David Weinstein's
band of CD Players, Impossible Music.
TONE: I began
to
work with CDs
in
1985, when the
CD
player first came out.
think then the machines were more primitive than now. I can
still
do
it,
but.
...
MUSIC:
You
use a standard machine? You don't alter
it
at all?
TONE: It's standard. I have two machines. In 1984, I bought the
fi'"t
one
to
experi-
ment
with-I
think it's Sharp or
something-and
then half a year later I bought
a different machine.
It
has better functions for ordinary use, but
it's
less useful
than the
first
one for me. Within a half year the maeflines alfeady improved,
so I don't think I could use a brand new machine for my periormance. I would
have
to
look for old, used ones.
MUSIC: Just like Christian, the turnlables you use.
MARCLAY: It's true . The Technics MK2 and MK3, which every
OJ
swears
by,
are
annoying machines
to
me. They'
re
too
delicate, too limiting
for
me.
The
sim·
pier the better.
342 • audio culture
MUSIC: What
kind
0
MARCLAY: They'
re
(
every school
in
dance classes a
have
four
diffeH
extra tone
arm.
MUS\C
: Cnfi,,'\ian, ir
Surrealism, Flu)
context,
vis·a·vi~
MARCLAY: I gel ml
about where
the
ence has never
some influence,
were
Ca
ge
and
concrete
and
its
of HipHop I
co
ul
Hip Hop
didn
't
gl
out
of
the
street~
way. Rather th,
records and a
c(
pening.
And
in
,
music and
the
f-
very
little
interac
in
betwee[l-nei
from
commercii;
everywhere,
It's
that
my
work
'"
replac
ed
by
digit
with sampling m
was ready
to
foil
TONE: Well,
you
kn(
think lhey
are
av
thing.
MARCLAY: But
whe,
think maybe
ther
because HipHo,
TONE: Well, the
clier
public.
MARC
LAY:
Anybody
TONE: Yeah.
Anybc
between
you
an
lay people,
It
do,
philosophy,
MARCLAY:
And
also
TON
E:
Well,
you
kno
MARCLAY: But,
Flu
>
nomenon.
MUSIC
: What kind 01 turntable do you normally use?
MARCLAY
: They're
ca
lled Califone. They're kind of institutional turntables used by
every school
in
the U.S.
The
y were used
for
audio·visual presentations,
for
dance
classes and whatever. Built to last, built to be abused
by
students. They
have
four diHerent speeds,
and
I
added
on
and
oH
switches, sometimes
an
extra
tone arm. Otherwise, they'
re
standard.
MUSIC
: Christian ,
in
an
art conte
xt
you are situated within a trajectory of
Oada
,
Surrealism
,
Fluxus.
Appropriation.
How
would
you
position
yourself
in
a
music
context, vis-a-vis Experimental, Pop, HipHop,
OJ?
MARCLAY
: I get my iniluences from many different places. I'm not very picky
about where they come from, whether it's high art or pop culture. That diHer-
ence
ha
s never been important to me. What HipHop OJs were doing had
some influence, though I became aware
01
that work later. My first influences
were
Cage
and so
me
of the Auxus experiments with sound. Then, musique
concre
te and its experimentation with found sounds.
When
I be
came
aware
of
HipHop I could
see
a natural connection between those two traditions. But,
Hip
Hop didn't grow out of that kind of white, nerdy, high art culture.
It
came
out
of the streets.
It
was a simple, direct way
to
make
mu
sic . And also a cheap
way. Rather than expensive musical instruments,
it
was just
some
cheap
records and a couple
of
turntables. There's an economic reason
for
this hap-
pening . And
in
some strange way these two
movements-the
Experimental
music and the Hip Hop c
ulture-ha
ve kind of grown separatel y and there are
very li«le interactions between the two, until now. I would like
to
think that I am
in
between-neither,
nor.
I don't try
to
make pop music and I usually stay away
Irom commercial beats, but my work is inlormed by the pop music I hear
everywhere.
It
's just a different way of using that material. It's also interesting
that my work with records
came
about just before analog records
were
replaced
by
digital technology and sampling.
It
felt like the industry came out
with sampling machines because
OJs
were sampling. I think the technology
was ready
to
follow
in
the footsteps of the musical ideas already present.
TONE
:
Well,
you know,
it
takes a long time to develop digital teChnology. I don't
Ihink they are aware of HipHop or whatever when they are developing some-
thing.
MARCLAY:
But when they started making their sampling keyboards and
stuH,
I
think maybe there was already that understanding that
it
was uselul to sample
becau
se
HipHop
OJ
s were doing
it
TONE: Well,
the
clientele was expected
to
be not just musicians, but the general
public.
MAR
CLAY: Anybody could become a musician.
TONE : Yeah. Anybody can become a musician. That's something in common
between you and me:
we
use a kind
of
technique that can be used
by
any
lay people.
It
doesn't recuire any special training. That
is
essentially a Fluxus
philosophy.
MARCLAY: And also the Punk philosophy.
TONE: Well, you know, Fluxus came before.
MAR
CLAY:
But, Fluxus was
an
art
movement, and punk was a pop culture phe-
n
omenon
.
c
hri
stian
marclay & yasunao to
ne
• 343
I
TONE:
That's true, but. .
In
the 60s we were transvers
ing
many categories
[ .
...
We)
didn't
re
cognize any dichotomy between high and low at that time.
These were transversal acts.
MUSIC
: We
li
ve
in
a particular, historical moment, with
its
environment, including
the strategy
of
the
avant garde and certain technology which becomes
avail
~
able, not only for the artist, but for others as well.
MARCLAY: When
the
industry comes up with a machine
to
record something,
it
has a very specific u
se
, but the artist has always tried
to
go beyond what the
machine was design
ed
for-like
Tone's use of CDs.
It
's the same with photog-
raphy. Moholy-Nagy put the camera aside, and started using the
medium of
photography
to
make photograms. The moment records were invented, peo·
pie started messing around with them. Again, Moholy-Nagy experimented by
modifying the grooves
of
records, and
im
agined drawing sounds directly onto
the
re
co
rd.
TONE: Even Paul Hindemith. When the record was cylindrical, he played Mozart
backwards-actually
I don't know if he did it
or
just proposed
it,
but it'S always
like that. A new technology, a new medium appears , and the artist usually
enlarges the u
se
of the technology .
...
Deviates.
MARCLAY: Abuse of technology.
TONE: I think deviation of technology.
You
have
to
deviate. I ca
ll
that kind of art
paramedia.
The manufacturers always force us
to
use a product their way. A
medium always has some telos; however, people occasionally find a way to
deviate
from
the original purpose
of
the medium and develop a totally new
field. Photographic technology had telos
to
make the image solid,
to
make
shadow and light solid,
so
the photograph was invented and it's constantly
being refined
in
order
to
be as accurate
as
possible. But, artists
do
not want
to
just imitate nature. When Man Ray invented solarization,
it
was a failure
in
the view of photographic technology, but of course artistically it's much more
interesting.
Or
,
musique
concrete.
As
soon as the tape recorder was
in
vented,
people like Pierre Schaeffer found that by splicing tape and changing its order
he could get a different sound than what was originally recorded. So, it's natu-
ral
for
artists
to
deviate.
MUSI
C:
I'm interested
in
how
thi
s deviation
by
the artist affects the chain
of
manu·
facturer
s,
marketers, and consumers. For instance, there's a whole new
revival of producing turntable
s.
They even make a turntable that plays back-
wards and has other details that weren't available before. This is partly
because the
OJ
scene
is
popular, and .
..
MARCLA
Y:
. Yeah, now you can buy samples of "record"
sounds-HipHop
sc
rat
c
hes-for
your keyboard.
You
can hear these sounds
in
advertisements
for
Coca-Cola
or
whatever, and
so
now
this
dysfunctioning machine
so
und
is
being recycled
for
commercial purposes.
TONE: It's recycled. Reappropriation of artists' appropriations.
MARCLAY: Again
an
example of the absurdity of wanting to disassociate high and
low
culture. Another good example
is
how experimental films
from
the
70s-
Stan Brakhage's fast editing and stuff which had no
co
mmercial va
lue-are
now being used
in
every
MTV
video and every
TV
ad. And really, who
invented this s
tuff
but crazy artists! Somehow the media has reappropriated
it
and turned it into a commercial.
It
goes back and forth.
344
• audio
cult
ure
TONE: It's a delusiol
concept.
MARCLAY:
\t
has
\0
TONE: Actually, it's
MUSIC:
You
said
bl
use simple tecl
learn how
\0
s~
art form.
So
ho
CDs?
MARCLAY: That's
I
not a very
acti
meaning
as
w~
medium
that
e\
They were
me.
cuts-one
aHe
l
has become
at
this undergrou
because
their
f
Japan they
are
advertising
thel
like the
big
cra<
don't
know
bla
c
TONE: They thougt
MARCLAY: They
gr
that
ha
s a
certe
TONE: When a
ne
l
two typical
reac
technology
in
01
technology
itse
just before
the
lete. I think
yo
u
MUSIC:
Well
,
even
t
available,
his
~
te
chnol
ogy.
Ob
rather
than
in
CI
MARCLAY: I
remerr
this object
to
b,
plastic that
hac
Switzerland
to
towards
object~
thousands
of
fE
about. It was
in
ent attitude
tOV'l
as just a
cheap
MUSIC: So,
in
a
w,
junk?
MARCLA
Y:
Yeah
, ,
object and refi,
TONE:
It's a delusion. It's a deluded form. The manufacturers don't care about the
concept.
MARCLAY
:
It
has lost its original meaning. It has become something else.
TONE
: Actually,
it
's totally different.
It
jusllooks
the same .
MUSIC
:
You
said before that anybody can become a musician and that you both
use
simple techniques. I hear that
in
Japan there's this
OJ
primer for kids
to
learn
how to spin. Any kid can do it.
It
becomes a sort of commodified popular
art
form.
So
how
can
you
radicalize ,
say
,
the
idea
of
manipulating records
or
CDs?
MARCLAY
: That's one of the reasons why I don't perform so offen anymore. I'm
not
a very active
OJ
these days because for me it doesn't have the same
meaning
as
when I
did
it
fifteen years ago when records were the common
medium that everybody used at home. Records were considered differently.
They were meant
to
be played from beginning
to
end, and a
OJ
just played
cuts-one
after
another-and
just
worried about transitions. Now
the
record
has become obsolete and CDs have really taken over, even though there is
this underground culture
of
OJs
, young kids
who
are rediscovering vinyl
because their first stereo equipment was not a turntable, but a
CD
player.
In
Japan they are selling all these black-and-white, throw-away cameras and
advertisi
ng
them with black-and-white images of movie stars from the 40s.
It
's
like the big craze for teenagers
to
take black-and-whi
te
pictures because they
don
't know black-and-white.
TONE
: They thought color pictures were natural.
MARCLAY : They grew up with Fuji colors.
It
's like re-discovering a poor medium
that has a certain fascination. It's a novelty again.
TONE
: When a new technology appears which makes old technology obsolete,
two
typ
ical reactions
occur
:
some
artists
dis
cover
an
abnormal
use
for
the
new
technology
in
order
to
expand
artistic
expression,
and
sometimes the obsolete
technology itself becomes
an
art
fomn
. Christian started working with records
just before the appearance of CDs which would soon
be
making vinyl obso-
lete,
I
think
you
sensed somehow
not
consciously
,
but.
.
..
MUSIC : Well, even though Christian began manipulating records before CDs were
available,
hiS
work can
be
seen now as a reaction
to
technology, to digital
technology. Obviously, you are both more interested
in
critiquing a medium
rather than
in
cutting-edge technology.
MARCLAY : I remember when my attitude towards the record changed from being
this object to
be
respected, collected and stored for posterit
y,
into a piece of
plastic that had
no
more value than a coffee cup in the gutter. Coming from
Switzerland
to
the
Un
ited States
in
the 70s, I noticed that change
in
attitudes
toward
s objects. I
would
see
records
on
the
street,
in
the
gutter.
I
would
see
thousands of records
in
thrift shops that nobody wanted, that nobody cared
about.
It was
in
some way that cultural change that allowed me
to
see a differ-
ent
a«itude towards
records
.
and
I pushed
in
that
direction, c
onSidering
them
as
just a cheap commodity
to
be used and abus
ed
.
MUSIC: So,
in
a way you use records just as a Fluxus or Dada artist would use
junk?
MARCLAY:
Yeah
, and the more I used
it,
the more I started thinking about the
object and reflecting on
it
and playing with its
meaning-its
cultural value ver-
christian
marclay & yasunao
tone
• 345
sus
it
s commodity value, and how
it
has affected the way we perceive
musi
c
and time. And so a
lot
of my work has been about
trying
to
understand
this
object.
MUSIC
:
Yo
u have made a few records, too.
MARCLAY: When I made a record,
it
had
to
be critical at the vinyl object.
It
cou
ld
not only
be
a document. Record Without 8 Cover was the perfect medium
for
my ideas, a record that was not about permanence, but about change.
It
was
sold without any protective packaging. By the lime you bought it in the store,
it
was already damaged during shipping and handling. It was a record that
threat
en ed
everything you were taught about records and how to handle
them. It even threatened yo
ur
needle.
You
couldn't be a passive
li
stener,
you
had
to
be involved.
It
was intriguing, unstable.
It
was a record about records.
MUSIC: Earlier you mentioned a
CO
by
OJ
Shad
ow.
Of course, a number
at
OJ
s
are releasing record s and CDs now. What do you think of
OJs
in
the recording
studio-studio
OJs?
MARC LAY : I liked working wilh records as a performance activity. I used the
records
in
front of people.
It
was a
li
ve event. There are very few recordings
because
I wasn
't
really
int
erested
in
making new
re
co
rds
, but more
;n
using
"dead" records
in
a "live" situation. So people unde
rsto
od
whe
re
the music
Cam
e from. It was very simple, everybody could understand the proces.s
because they knew how
to
use records.
Once
you are
in
a
re
cor
ding
studiO
,
you start using
alilhe
technology that's available. That technology
is
not visi-
ble or audible necessarily.
Yo
u get
this
kind
of mystery.
in
some way a hierar·
chy. Technology can sometimes create that hierarchy. There
's
the
technicians, the .
..
TONE
:
...
composer, conductor, performer,
engineer.
MARCLAY: . And then at the bottom of the pyramid,
th
e listener
s,
who are just
like, "Wow, how did he do this?" I like it better wh
en
someone says,
"O
h, I
could
do
that." And that's what the old mechanical turntable and vinyl allow
me to do.
You
know,
in
Ihe 80s everybody wanted
to
be
a gUitar player. Now
in
the 90s, everybody wanls to be a
OJ.
To
me the guitar always had a m
ys
-
tery.
Yo
u had to be really skilled and studied
in
some
ways-even
though you
had a few illuminated geniuses like Arto Lindsay who just learned by doing
it-but
there's something about a record and a turntable that seems so easy.
I think that's what the big deal is. That
's
why everyone wants to
be
a
OJ,
because
it's
so easy.
TONE: Well, you're a mas
te
r.
Master
of-
MARCLAY:
...
Not a
OJ.
TONE: A meta-OJ. I think there's probably a big difference between analog and
digital in terms of playing discs. I think digital is basically unpredictable. There
are
so
many
bits
and bytes
of
information condensed
in
one
tiny
space, and
you can'l loca
te
which part of
th
e disc produces Ihis sound. But for you, you
almost
lo
cate, you can actually see the sound.
CO
players are instructed by
the information
on
the
CD-wh
en
to
stop, how fast
to
spin-and
if
you dys-
functi
on that inf
or
mation the disc cannot progress the way the piece goes. So,
I
do
a kind of de-controlling of the sound-producing process, of the system of
mu
sic
itself. Well,
it's
essentially a Flux
us
event. The idea of periormance
is
sort of de-controlled.
346
• audio cultu
re
MARCLAY:
And
not
ing that random
TONE: Basically,
as
mate
rial
I
also
c
MARCLA
Y:
So you'r
MUSIC:
Tone
's a
di~
MARCLAY: And not knowing
th
e outcome, not being totally in contro
l,
and accept-
ing that randomness.
TONE: Basi
ca
ll
y,
as a performance artist we do
th
e same thing, but towa
rd
s the
material I also de-control the material.
MARC
LAY
: So you'
re
a master of de-controlling?
MUSIC: Tone's a digital master, and Ch
ri
s
ti
an's an analog master. [Laughte
r]
christian marclay & yasunao tone •
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